Increasing gravity without adding mass

[Selena]

Hello all! I am writing a young reader's Sci-Fi book and am having some problems locating all the information I need! :rolleyes:

The back story includes the terraforming of Ganymede and I need to know if there is any way to increase a planet's gravity without adding mass. I would also love to hear any theories on increasing gravity, no matter how impractical, devastating, or technologically unfeasible!

Also, if anyone has anything at all to add about Ganymede and/or terraforming that might be useful, please feel free to post it!

Thanks for your help and input! :D

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Q; Do we get a Cut? ( :p )

A; Cooling it should increase it's gravity, but it should ALSO cause it to shrink.

Is that any help?

[Selena]

If my book actually sells I don't mind sharing... Other wise, the only cuts I'll have are paper! :p

That helps tremendously, but the moon's current surface temperature ranges between negative 170 and negative 250 degrees C! How much effect would cooling it farther really have? Shrinking doesn't really make a difference... But what would happen if the temperature rose? The gravity would lower, right?

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

© Mr. Robin Parsons Kingston Ontario Canada MMV

Huummm no exactly, it would expand first, then the Gravity would decrease at the Surface, because it does make a Difference, the Density of it is an Internal Gravitational Function.....It is proven Mathematically by G*m/r where

G is the gravitational Constant

m is the mass

r is the raduis of the planetary/moon body, in question

As you might deduce, reducing it's actual size changes only the r (radius)
factor, as the mass remains the same the Gravitational Function changes relative strength at the surface. (But can you prove that?)

Least four (4) ways to play with this, maybe more...

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Mr. Robin Parsons Kingston Ontario Canada MMV

BTW the Gravitational Constant, Isn't.

You would probably do lots better, if a realistic pathway is the Goal, in attempting to do it to Venus, atmosphere is already there, (CO2? and/or CO?) cooling it would bring it more in line with the Requisites of Temperature, it's position is More condusive to available Solar energy "supplies" etc. etc.

Tell me, that paper :eek: cut, was it a Cheque? :P

Did it hurt? :eek: :D :p :rolleyes:

[Selena]

:D It only hurt because it was soooo small! :eek: :D :p

You are right in that Venus would be much easier... Unfortunately, my story line calls for something beyond the asteroid belt... In the end, I'll probably have to move out to a different solar system to make it work, but I want to see what's possible in our outer system first!

So, how big a problem is Ganymede's gravity (as in I'm worried that a person could be pushed right off the moon!)? It's gravity is 0.145 G, escape velocity is 2.74 km/sec. The mean density is 1.94 gm/cm^3, the mass is 1,481.9 10^20 kg, and the radius is 2,631.2 km.

Also, someone else suggested adding mass to Ganymede in the form of putting a small amount of degenerate matter (neutronium, quarkonium - probably the latter because it's less likely to destabilize) at its core. How realistic is this concept?

Oh, and changing the gravity will change the orbit, how would I go about calculating that (but only tell me if the formula is somewhat easy to explain :p )?

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

:D It only hurt because it was soooo small! :eek: :D :p
You are right in that Venus would be much easier... Unfortunately, my story line calls for something beyond the asteroid belt... In the end, I'll probably have to move out to a different solar system to make it work, but I want to see what's possible in our outer system first!
So, how big a problem is Ganymede's gravity (as in I'm worried that a person could be pushed right off the moon!)? It's gravity is 0.145 G, escape velocity is 2.74 km/sec. The mean density is 1.94 gm/cm^3, the mass is 1,481.9 10^20 kg, and the radius is 2,631.2 km.
Also, someone else suggested adding mass to Ganymede in the form of putting a small amount of degenerate matter (neutronium, quarkonium - probably the latter because it's less likely to destabilize) at its core. How realistic is this concept?
Oh, and changing the gravity will change the orbit, how would I go about calculating that (but only tell me if the formula is somewhat easy to explain :p )?
Uhhmmmm YIKES!! :eek: Uhhmmm, O.K. Uhhmmmm ya, uhmmm I'll be right back.....

(seen running off to his tent :p ......to think...... :cool: )


P.S. :confused: What the (deleted) is "quarkonium"?? :confused:

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

© Mr. Robin Parsons Kingston Ontario Canada MMV

So, a quick Google search "planetary motion" 1-10 of 2,440,000

Kepler (http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/history/kepler.html)

Again? (http://zebu.uoregon.edu/textbook/planets.html)

And again..? (http://faculty.fullerton.edu/cmcconnell/Planets.html)


this one, apparently, you can 'play' with...

Fun!! ?? (http://galileoandeinstein.physics.virginia.edu/more_stuff/flashlets/kepler6.htm)

After that, well, changing it's mass requires that you change it's orbital velocity in order to keep it from degrading, ergo eventually falling toward the "parent planet' in this case, but changing it's orbital velocity perturbs all of the rest of what is in motion, around that particular parent planet, Jupiter, hence you might just find further problems (in reality...Not in Fiction though)

As for extraSolar destinations your immediate problem is/are the distances, the closet Sun/Star to us is Alpha Centari (Now Known As Alpha Proxima) about four (4) Light years away, ergo four (4) years of travel if, and only if, you can achieve Lightspeed, currently attained/attainable speeds are around twenty five thousand (25,000 MPH) miles per hour, calculate that out and it is well beyond any Present Humans Lifetime...length of life-time.

Clearly, you can research, so why the questioning here?

P.S. It is not the size of the Cheque that matters, it is what it says on it, the amount. :p

[Selena]

Sorry my reply didn't come yesterday - for some reason my computer refuses to load the 'reply' page when I'm wireless!!! Arrrgggg :mad: :p !

P.S. What the (deleted) is "quarkonium"??

Well, I'm not going to pretend that I understand any of this , but quarkonium is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarkonium. My best summarized guess is that it is an extremely heavy matter that is somewhat unstable due to its massive weight. But... that's just a guess from the context it was used in... I don't understand most of the definition found on the link! :o

Those links you gave me are great and give me a lot of the info I need; thanks! :) The last one is awesome to play with! :D

As far as research goes, I am more than capable of doing it (in fact, my favorite pass time is researching and learning new things - I am working as a nanny to earn extra money while I await publication on a few of my other stories and you wouldn't believe the kinds of questions a 7 and 5 year old are capable of stumping me on! Some of the answers are fascinating!) The problem that I am having in doing my own research on this project is that I am over loaded with information, most of which is irrelevant and contradictory. Part of this is due to the fact that I don't know the right terminology to use in my search. Thusly I decided to find some science forums to get the help of 'professionals'. I figured that their input would lead me down the right path, and so far I have not been disappointed! :)

If I have to move the story outside the solar system, then I'm in big trouble. Part of the catch is that radio technology has been completely outdated and the heroin of the story makes a radio to call for help. And, the story can not wait for 8 years for the signal to be received and a message sent back! One of the most frustrating parts of this is that I know what I want to happen, but I can't make the science line up - which is what I'm most adamant about! :(

Okay, I've jabbered on enough today, talk to you later!

P.S. Well, the most prominate words on the check are "Do Not Cash" and "No Monetary Value"! And the ammount says, "$00,000.00"... No, really, once the book is written, and a publisher picks it up, I can expect to earn an advance of somewhere between $20,000 and $1,000 depending on whether or not any of my other books are published first and how big the publishing house is. If that ever happens, I'm more than willing to cut you in, you've been a great help to me! :) :D :cool: Thank you very much! :)

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

© Mr. Robin Parsons Kingston Ontario Canada MMV

Thanks, and I looked at that quarkonium page, in your research you should (perhaps) look up the 'Half Lives' of things Like the top quark and/or other quantum particles, as you will probably find that most of them have no "real time" (beyond seconds, if that) existence, such that they would be elemental components of what is stable, but not stable, unto themselves, ergo tricky at best.

If I can think up an unusual method of transmitting the message across four light years of space, in a Much short time manner, would you like that as a PM? Cause then you can easily go Extra Solar, anywheres you would like, actually.

(Private message)

Yes, I do think there is a way, useing current tech.

I had better check my subscription to this thread as I don't think I got the notice of your posting and it is so nice to have other people to talk to.

P.S. Did you read my post in 'Philosophy of the Arts' on 'Artists Power' as i would be very curious to know what Anyone thinks, about that!

[Selena]

Hey, sorry I haven't replied in a bit :o My friend just flew into town and I've been soooo busy!

So where were we???? 'Quarkonium': so the quark-stuff wouldn't be stable or lasting enough for me to use... Hmmm... What is the heaviest and most stable mass that is naturally occurring or easy to produce? I'll have to look into that...

Or maybe I'll just invent a gravity machine :D It is getting harder and harder to find real science that could create the things necessary for my story! :( I think I'm going to have to fib it!

So far, the only thing I can come up with (that is currently theoretically feasible) for long range instantaneous communications (or damn close) is the use of communication worm holes or nano-worm holes. What is the theory you have/know of? PMs are just fine BTW, and I eagerly await your response! I don't know how often I'll be near the computer during the next month, but I promise to log on as often as possible.

As for your "Artist Power" posts, I have only read about 2/3s of the first page, but will try to finish the rest next time I'm on. I'm not quiet sure what to say; you seem to have a lot of hostility towards Oprah - most of which I don't understand because I don't know all of the history there. I do agree with you that 'artists'/'celebrities' wield a great deal of power over the common citizen, especially in terms of buying power. I find it truly sad and discouraging that the average person feels such a driving force to mimic TV/movie personalities (in regards to all aspects of life - food/diet, sex/love, living spaces, transportation, clothing, entertainment - the list never ends!). I do not place all of the responsibility for this change (and in my opinion decline) on celebrities, for as the saying goes, the only people who can be fooled are the ones that want to be.

It is great to hear that you are also passionate about the environment and are trying to make a change. With so little percent of the population worried enough to do anything about global warming and the like, I wonder how we will ever be able to make enough of an impact to rectify the damage we've done to this planet.

Okay, I have to run, I'll chat with you more later! :)

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Hey, sorry I haven't replied in a bit :o My friend just flew into town and I've been soooo busy!
No Problemo :)

So where were we???? 'Quarkonium': so the quark-stuff wouldn't be stable or lasting enough for me to use... Hmmm... What is the heaviest and most stable mass that is naturally occurring or easy to produce? I'll have to look into that...
Uranium is about one of the heaviest, stable, (Sorta) elements

Or maybe I'll just invent a gravity machine :D It is getting harder and harder to find real science that could create the things necessary for my story! :( I think I'm going to have to fib it!
Sounds like the best plan yet, sorta. ;) (sorry)

So far, the only thing I can come up with (that is currently theoretically feasible) for long range instantaneous communications (or damn close) is the use of communication worm holes or nano-worm holes. What is the theory you have/know of? PMs are just fine BTW, and I eagerly await your response! I don't know how often I'll be near the computer during the next month, but I promise to log on as often as possible.
Given that the manner that I, By the Grace of God, can 'come up with' (Presently know) is real, (And instantaneous) and is a Practical and applicable manner, it might be best for me not to trust computers, anywhere, for it's transmission...too Spooky if you get my drift.....

As for your "Artist Power" posts, I have only read about 2/3s of the first page, but will try to finish the rest next time I'm on. I'm not quiet sure what to say; you seem to have a lot of hostility towards Oprah - most of which I don't understand because I don't know all of the history there. I do agree with you that 'artists'/'celebrities' wield a great deal of power over the common citizen, especially in terms of buying power. I find it truly sad and discouraging that the average person feels such a driving force to mimic TV/movie personalities (in regards to all aspects of life - food/diet, sex/love, living spaces, transportation, clothing, entertainment - the list never ends!). I do not place all of the responsibility for this change (and in my opinion decline) on celebrities, for as the saying goes, the only people who can be fooled are the ones that want to be.
First feedback I have gotten, hostility? towards Oprah...Hummm, guess it does look like that, but 'Hostility' isn't the right emotive/word, more like Outrage (without Anger) that this Idiot is still able to keep me suppressed, in this manner, and that the World will (and is) suffer(ing) as a result of the time delays....it is because it is Soooooooooooooooooooo Incredibly STUPID! that "I" feel what I feel, worst thing in the World! > for the Children...Of the World!

(Someone oughta <DELETED> {oust?} the selfish PIG!)


It is great to hear that you are also passionate about the environment and are trying to make a change. With so little percent of the population worried enough to do anything about global warming and the like, I wonder how we will ever be able to make enough of an impact to rectify the damage we've done to this planet.
Okay, I have to run, I'll chat with you more later! :)

How true....So sell the SUV and buy something that uses less, if any, Gasoline, reduce and/or cease use of anything and everything that generates HEAT...thats a Start, then lets get rid of all of those Nuclear Warheads, you know them? George Bush! :p for one!

Anyways 'nuff of a rant from me as responce, so thanks for 'chatting' hear from you? again?.....later? :D

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

© Mr. Robin Parsons Kingston Ontario Canada MMV

7:06 PM 21/09/2005

BTW I needed to add, it is Also George Bushs' fault, my suppression, as it escalated beyond Oprahs' power to Conspire to Squash me, some time back, with my involvement in the Supreme Court of Canada's John Robin Sharpe case. (Case # 27376)

Beyond that, the idea of transmission instantaneously across light-years of space, is really neat! 'cept that, we don't really need the technology, just yet, so No one is about to Rush to it....as you could figure it is/would be, Militarily VERY IMPORTANT who has it.

(That is why the Mention of the Spooks, as you can be quite certain they monitor{?} just about anything, and everything, I do....the people {Soldiers/military} who came near my tent, at night, in the Spring, really destroyed the plant life, flattened it right out. :rolleyes: )

Then again, given the Blithe stupidity of the Current Leadership, (and the potentials of risk to my life) telling people, in general, some of the things that I have Knowledge of, like how to get a computer/computers' camera, to have the same depth perception as the Human Eye, well, you can figure it's value, in monetary worth, nevermind all of the Other values of such a Progression of Humankinds' Knowledge, so I tend to just keep my mouth shut Hoping that at least one of the Current Leaders is, well, intelligent enough (LOL, well, ROTF-really-LMAO!) to figure out that they should have tried talking/responding to me...but that appears as only 'wishfull thinking' as they genuinely seem just to be full of 'other reasons' (what? I don't Know!) why they would prefer to remain, in my eyes, ignorant, and Stupid! :mad:

After that, the environment, well, given that what is at stake, currently, is the viability of the Planets' face (the surface, where we live, upon) as 'habitable' inasmuch as we are, collectively, Re-Terraforming it by our wasteful practises, and actions, such that the ultimate viability, of survival, for the Children of George Bush Jrs' Children, might be something likened to, living in Antarctica, under a Rock, that is having it's face dusted off by The intense UV, and it is roughly 130 F in January! :eek:

That is NOT something that I would like to see happen, or would know about as 'happening'....after all, I would be Deceased by then so it won't be affecting me, BUT "I" still have a responsibility, just like everyone else, BUT! GREATER STILL, then most, inasmuch as "I" have been gifted...By God.

Thereafter, Please that thread "Artists' Power" (and/or all of the rest of what I have written) tell your Friends, and ask them to tell their Friends, and so on, and so on, and so on...if you don't mind that is....Thanks. :)

Hope you return to Chat again....so-on :cool:

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Uhhmmmm, (Karnack :p speaks) "the message is coming through" :rolleyes: ...."you have a private message" :eek: :cool: :) :D

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Certainly hope your not caught in Rita, or in danger from it.

Don't worry about anything else...stay safe.

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

© Mr. Robin Parsons Kingston Ontario Canada MMV

Get it? Got it? Good!

Just as a reminder thought, it is Un-tested ergo no one knows for a certainty that it would work, testing it would, at present travel speeds, be difficult, at best.

Dropping a 'String of Pearls' would shorten initiation time, but lengthen transmission time by, probably, milliseconds.

Thanks Have fun with it. :D

[alexross]

Hello,
I am sure that the general concensus is that it would be nice to receive some recognition in your book or a royalty. I believe it is the proper practice for authors and you should have offered it. Any reputable publisher would expect this as future problems of copyright can arise.

Anyway to answer your question.

Why not concentrate on how gravity is increased.
Since this is fictional and I can try somthing that would pull the planet apart........
Why not use Einstein's work and compress the core several times.
The problem with this is that the surface would contract too.
But as reality is no problem we fix that with a secondary miraculous process that restores the gravational effect to the desired surface gravity.
Why not some new false moons?
Regards,
Alex

Hello all! I am writing a young reader's Sci-Fi book and am having some problems locating all the information I need! :rolleyes:

The back story includes the terraforming of Ganymede and I need to know if there is any way to increase a planet's gravity without adding mass. I would also love to hear any theories on increasing gravity, no matter how impractical, devastating, or technologically unfeasible!

Also, if anyone has anything at all to add about Ganymede and/or terraforming that might be useful, please feel free to post it!

Thanks for your help and input! :D

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

© Mr. Robin Parsons Kingston Ontario Canada MMV

Why not concentrate on how gravity is increased.
Since this is fictional and I can try somthing that would pull the planet apart........
Why not use Einstein's work and compress the core several times.
The problem with this is that the surface would contract too.
But as reality is no problem we fix that with a secondary miraculous process that restores the gravational effect to the desired surface gravity.
Why not some new false moons?
Regards,
Alex My post number four deals with how this can occur without it being a "Fictional" Answer, cause as you would probably understand the closer science fiction writting is to real science, the better it reads, ergo "sells" as Plausability helps, otherwise you lose your audience when you go to far out into Fictional (Sorta like "Superhero") Powers.

As for compressing the core, the core of the Earth is Measurable/measured at (roughly) Four MBars of Pressure......don't know of anything (off-hand) that can achieve that kind of pressure, nevermind increase it.

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

© Mr. Robin Parsons Kingston Ontario Canada MMV

You might like to take a look here (http://physicsmathforums.com/showthread.php?t=225&page=16&pp=10) too, (Post # 153) as it explains the "Communications over lightyears of space in milliseconds" Idea..... :cool: ( :eek: )

[alexross]

Hi Robin,
Yes you are quite right.
I was taking a soft Soft Fi approach in which you do not answer or address all the possibilities.
The approaches a writer comes up with can (in this case might) determine how much hard science you can include and the type of book you write.
Also unless you are brilliant like Asimov et al you will find it hard as a writer to be entertaining as well as scientific.
Of course no-one has been able to manipulate gravity yet so we have to stretch credibility a little. Don't you think so?
Regards,
Alex

© Mr. Robin Parsons Kingston Ontario Canada MMV

My post number four deals with how this can occur without it being a "Fictional" Answer, cause as you would probably understand the closer science fiction writting is to real science, the better it reads, ergo "sells" as Plausability helps, otherwise you lose your audience when you go to far out into Fictional (Sorta like "Superhero") Powers.

As for compressing the core, the core of the Earth is Measurable/measured at (roughly) Four MBars of Pressure......don't know of anything (off-hand) that can achieve that kind of pressure, nevermind increase it.

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

© Mr. Robin Parsons Kingston Ontario Canada MMVI

(SNIP) Of course no-one has been able to manipulate gravity yet so we have to stretch credibility a little. Don't you think so? Regards, Alex (SNoP)

Actually.... (I) disagree abut the 'Manipulating gravity' it has been going on for a Long time now....makes for better writing.......this way....


Does Intrigue sell as well as "Entertaining"? or does it 'Hold' better?

[geistkiesel]

Hello all! I am writing a young reader's Sci-Fi book and am having some problems locating all the information I need! :rolleyes:

The back story includes the terraforming of Ganymede and I need to know if there is any way to increase a planet's gravity without adding mass. I would also love to hear any theories on increasing gravity, no matter how impractical, devastating, or technologically unfeasible!

Also, if anyone has anything at all to add about Ganymede and/or terraforming that might be useful, please feel free to post it!

Thanks for your help and input! :D
Gravity is genertally thought to be mass attraction. So, suppose in the direction away from earth on the opposite side of the planet where you are located, a rtandom arrangement of stars and planets align and all are pointing at you from the other side of the planet and from way out in space - but there are zillions that line up - hence extra gravity. You think that you have gained weight or that gravity increased. What really happened is the addition of the gravity from the aligned stars and planets - pure bs, but its good bs.

No.2 Due to a spinning plasma that has encircled the earth the earth has been transformed into a long symmetrical tjube rounded on the ends one of which you are standing on. You still think everything is cool because you dfon't know about the plasma. Now 90% of the earth is directly below you as opposed to the amount of stuff below when the earth was round.

No.3. Similar to No.2 except the plasma got into the earth and redisdributed the mass into a thin shell, hollow inside and below ground level. You feel like flying and in fact the slightest step senmds you hundreds of feet upward. The totasl mass of the planet has been redistributed only.

No 4. A gazillionaire has published a ;promise to pay every car owner on the plane with $1,000,000 for every car, gas burning factory boilers, refrigerator, stove, etc they bring to El Paso , Texas. Virtually gazillions of tons of metal are soon concentrated in El Paso tx. This huge concentration of metal/mass in one place creates an instability in the earth's rotation sending the planet into a highly irregular orbit with a trajectory that goes as close tpo the sun as Venus and as far away as Mars. Some days the Air Conditioning establishment gets super rich, sometimes the Heating establishment gets rich and sometimes everytrhing is like Hawaii when its all balmy and perfect. Then, sometimes you may wake up.

No trigazillion. On 'jump day' everyone on earth is poised to do one thing in harmony with everybody else. After dismissing a universal social-religious-political agreement we all agree that for a second or more we jump or fly or pole vault off the earth surface, or jump off a bridge into water. For a brief second the earth has lost a gazillion pounds and the sun now suddenly jerks the earth and momentum carries the earth orbit closer to the sun thereby trivializing the scare mongers pouting, "global warming, global warming", when everything is really HOT!.

Buy air conditioning stocks.

[tuvw601]

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