View Full Version : Godels block universe in MDT
Ok so you've all probably heard this analogy before but I'll state it anyway briefly. A train is moving at a constant velocity (from left to right, assuming your picturing this on your computer screen) with a light bulb in the middle. The light is then turned on. For an observer in the train, the light hits both the front (right side) and back (left) walls simultaneously. However, an observer on the platform outside will not agree, proclaiming that the light reached the back (left) wall first (because light in SR travels at a constant speed and therefore had less distance to travel toward the back wall as it did toward the front). The lesson it teaches is the one we're all familiar with, that objects (people in this case) in relative motion will not agree on simultaneity. This is justified by using a block universe where all of space-time already exists allowing people in relative motion to "slice up" the block at different angles based on their different perspectives.
My question is how does MDT theory explain the inagreement of simultaneity without having this block universe. MDT theory claims that time is only ever Planks deep and there is no such thing as past or future, simply present. This to me seems much closer to reality than SR and GR which require a block universe, which is why this theory intrigues me. Now, in a block universe, each slice of this "space-time loaf" is considered an instant in SR and GR. Since MDT claims only the present ever exists, than lets just alter this block universe so that instead of encompassing all of the space-time slices, it only ever shows one slice. ***note that I am aware that this slice is normally considered an instant and instants don't exist in MDT, but lets just consider the one slice as the smallest unit of time, since it is a small deviation from an instant and not relevant to the point being made.*** With all this being said, and our new "picture" of the universe being changed from a block with every instant of time to a single instant (plank deep) forever moving toward the future, how can the disagreement of simultaneity be proved in this manner? If we now go back to the train analogy, we see that the observer on the train and the observer on the platform don't agree on simultaneity and therefore have different conceptions of "now." If MDT simply has one "now" slice forever moving toward the future, how does it account for this misconception? How can there be any other perspective other than the one time slice in MDT? What am I missing here.
Also, MDT states that time is an emergent property of the fourth dimension moving relative to the other three dimensions at speed c in units of plank lenth. OK but where is this dimension moving to? And what kind of dimension is it if it's not a time dimension? Is it a spacial dimension thats moving relative to the other 3, causing time to emerge?
Sorry for the long post. Please try to avoid complex mathematics in your responses, as I'm not the best in that field. Thanks.
Epsilon=One
11-05-2006, 01:29 AM
...there is no such thing as past or future, simply present. This to me seems much closer to reality than SR and GR...You have the concept of relative time backward; it should be: "there is no such thing as" the present; there is only the past and future.
The present is the limit of the infinitesimal . . . Infinity (http://www.CQthus.com/PT/I), where there is no motion; thus, no existence.
As for the rest of your post it all depends upon how fundamental your postulates are for each argument. It is almost like comparing light as analogous to mass.
I've read that MDT theory claims that there is no past or future, only the present. The present is always planks length deep in time, which is why time travel is not permitted, except for a planks length of time (which is insignificant). In Einsteins relativity, there is the past, present and future all existing simultaneously. Therefore, I don't see how my understanding of relative time is "backward." Also, aside from these misuderstandings, if they are so, can you please tell me how MDT explains the disagreement of simultaneity. I'm really trying to picture MDT similarly to a block universe picture (even though it is not a block universe). But what I mean is that I'm trying to depict in my mind a slice of time from one observers perspective, forever moving forward into the future. Is this clear? thanks.
Epsilon=One
11-05-2006, 09:57 PM
I've read that MDT theory claims that there is no past or future, only the present. ... In Einsteins relativity, there is the past, present and future all existing simultaneously. Therefore, I don't see how my understanding of relative time is "backward."I can't speak for MDT, Einstein, or you; however, I can see no logic that suggests that the "instantaneous" present can possibly exist.
It would seem that either you have misinterpreted these theories; or, you and the theories you quote are illogical.
...can you please tell me how MDT explains the disagreement of simultaneity. I'm really trying to picture MDT similarly to a block universe picture (even though it is not a block universe). But what I mean is that I'm trying to depict in my mind a slice of time from one observers perspective, forever moving forward into the future. Is this clear?Yes, your request is clear. However, it is difficult enough to explain the logical . . . Time (http://www.CQthus.com/PT/Time) and other dimensions (http://www.CQthus.com/PT/D) (ways of determining location) do not move! Time is counting; orthogonal dimensions are directional descriptions. Objects like particles and waves move.
Well, this is the MDT section of the website so I would prefer an MDT answer as opposed to your specific beliefs.
Also, I wouldn't go calling Einstein's relativity "illogical," as it is one of the most successfully experimented theories in all of science!
Epsilon=One
11-06-2006, 06:52 PM
Well, this is the MDT section of the website so I would prefer an MDT answer as opposed to your specific beliefs.Sorry.
...I wouldn't go calling Einstein's relativity "illogical," as it is one of the most successfully experimented theories in all of science!The theory may well be "one of the most successfully experimented theories in all of science!"; however, if, as you interpret it, the theory contends that the infinitesimal (a limit that cannot be reached) "exists"; then your interpretation, and/or the theory, certainly contains "illogical" concepts. I am not demeaning Einstein; only your interpretation, or a portion, of the theory.
fair enough. Can anybody describe a way to perceive the universe from an "outside perspective," as in the block universe, using MDT?
thanx
astro
11-07-2006, 04:12 PM
Ok so you've all probably heard this analogy before but I'll state it anyway briefly. A train is moving at a constant velocity (from left to right, assuming your picturing this on your computer screen) with a light bulb in the middle. The light is then turned on. For an observer in the train, the light hits both the front (right side) and back (left) walls simultaneously. However, an observer on the platform outside will not agree, proclaiming that the light reached the back (left) wall first (because light in SR travels at a constant speed and therefore had less distance to travel toward the back wall as it did toward the front). The lesson it teaches is the one we're all familiar with, that objects (people in this case) in relative motion will not agree on simultaneity. This is justified by using a block universe where all of space-time already exists allowing people in relative motion to "slice up" the block at different angles based on their different perspectives.
My question is how does MDT theory explain the inagreement of simultaneity without having this block universe. MDT theory claims that time is only ever Planks deep and there is no such thing as past or future, simply present. This to me seems much closer to reality than SR and GR which require a block universe, which is why this theory intrigues me. Now, in a block universe, each slice of this "space-time loaf" is considered an instant in SR and GR. Since MDT claims only the present ever exists, than lets just alter this block universe so that instead of encompassing all of the space-time slices, it only ever shows one slice. ***note that I am aware that this slice is normally considered an instant and instants don't exist in MDT, but lets just consider the one slice as the smallest unit of time, since it is a small deviation from an instant and not relevant to the point being made.*** With all this being said, and our new "picture" of the universe being changed from a block with every instant of time to a single instant (plank deep) forever moving toward the future, how can the disagreement of simultaneity be proved in this manner? If we now go back to the train analogy, we see that the observer on the train and the observer on the platform don't agree on simultaneity and therefore have different conceptions of "now." If MDT simply has one "now" slice forever moving toward the future, how does it account for this misconception? How can there be any other perspective other than the one time slice in MDT? What am I missing here.
MDT agrees perfectly with all of SR and GR. Length contraction happens--it happens to every element, every atom, as it gains velocity, for it it rotated out of the three stationary spatial dimensions and into the expanding time dimension.
The expansion of the fourth dimension appears as a spherically-symmetric wavefront in the three spatial dimensions. Picture a photon--it is expanding as a spherically symmetric wavefront. And yet, a photon does not move through time!
To travel at the speed of light is to stand still in time!
http://jitcrunch.cafepress.com/jitcrunch.aspx?bG9hZD1ibGFuayxibGFuazoxNTJfRl9jNi5 qcGd8bG9hZD1MMCxodHRwOi8vaW1hZ2VzLmNhZmVwcmVzcy5jb 20vaW1hZ2UvMTQyNTYzMzFfNDAweDQwMC5wbmd8fHNjYWxlPUw wLDE3OCwxNDgsVHJhbnNwYXJlbnR8bG9hZD10bS1MMCxibGFua zoxNTJfRl9jNl90bWFzay5qcGd8Y29tcG9zZT1MMCx0bS1MMCx UZXh0dXJlTWFzaywtMTUyLC0xMDV8Y29tcG9zZT1ibGFuayxMM CxBbHBoYUJsZW5kLDE1MiwxMDV8Y3A9cmVzdWx0LGJsYW5rfHN jYWxlPXJlc3VsdCwwLDQ4MCxXaGl0ZXxjb21wcmVzc2lvbj05N Xw=
To travel at the speed of light through the three spatial dimensions is to stand still in the fourth dimension.
Ergo, the fourth dimension must be expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions!!
http://www.cafepress.com/autumnrangers.72464949
http://www.cafepress.com/autumnrangers.72464959
Also, MDT states that time is an emergent property of the fourth dimension moving relative to the other three dimensions at speed c in units of plank lenth. OK but where is this dimension moving to? And what kind of dimension is it if it's not a time dimension? Is it a spacial dimension thats moving relative to the other 3, causing time to emerge?
The fourth dimension is expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions. Every point in the fourth dimension is expanding in a spherically symmetric manner.
dx4/dx1-3 = c
Sorry for the long post. Please try to avoid complex mathematics in your responses, as I'm not the best in that field. Thanks.
MDT agrees perfectly with all of SR and GR. Length contraction happens--it happens to every element, every atom, as it gains velocity, for it it rotated out of the three stationary spatial dimensions and into the expanding time dimension.
The expansion of the fourth dimension appears as a spherically-symmetric wavefront in the three spatial dimensions. Picture a photon--it is expanding as a spherically symmetric wavefront. And yet, a photon does not move through time!
To travel at the speed of light is to stand still in time!
http://jitcrunch.cafepress.com/jitcrunch.aspx?bG9hZD1ibGFuayxibGFuazoxNTJfRl9jNi5 qcGd8bG9hZD1MMCxodHRwOi8vaW1hZ2VzLmNhZmVwcmVzcy5jb 20vaW1hZ2UvMTQyNTYzMzFfNDAweDQwMC5wbmd8fHNjYWxlPUw wLDE3OCwxNDgsVHJhbnNwYXJlbnR8bG9hZD10bS1MMCxibGFua zoxNTJfRl9jNl90bWFzay5qcGd8Y29tcG9zZT1MMCx0bS1MMCx UZXh0dXJlTWFzaywtMTUyLC0xMDV8Y29tcG9zZT1ibGFuayxMM CxBbHBoYUJsZW5kLDE1MiwxMDV8Y3A9cmVzdWx0LGJsYW5rfHN jYWxlPXJlc3VsdCwwLDQ4MCxXaGl0ZXxjb21wcmVzc2lvbj05N Xw=
To travel at the speed of light through the three spatial dimensions is to stand still in the fourth dimension.
Ergo, the fourth dimension must be expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions!!
http://www.cafepress.com/autumnrangers.72464949
http://www.cafepress.com/autumnrangers.72464959
Also, MDT states that time is an emergent property of the fourth dimension moving relative to the other three dimensions at speed c in units of plank lenth. OK but where is this dimension moving to? And what kind of dimension is it if it's not a time dimension? Is it a spacial dimension thats moving relative to the other 3, causing time to emerge?
The fourth dimension is expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions. Every point in the fourth dimension is expanding in a spherically symmetric manner.
dx4/dx1-3 = c
Right I understand how MDT accounts for the ageless photon e=mc2 but MDT seems to have the same response to every question: "The fourth dimension is expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions. Every point in the fourth dimension is expanding in a spherically symmetric manner." Thats all great and is in fact why I find the theory intriguing. But are there any other details besides this simple postulate that can explain known phenomena? I understand the concept behind it (how it explains Lorentz contraction and the slowing of time, etc.) but how does it explain the disagreement of simultaneity, which is one of the major concepts behind special relativity. Maybe I just don't comprehend it that well but I'm really having trouble understanding how two people can disagree on a particular event, without using the block universe perspective. Please help me depict this in my head without using MDT's simple postulate's. thank you.
Epsilon=One
11-08-2006, 02:06 AM
...MDT seems to have the same response to every question: "The fourth dimension is expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions. Every point in the fourth dimension is expanding in a spherically symmetric manner."I find it helpful to think of the "fourth dimension" as a Pulsoid and the "spherically symmetric manner" as a special ellipsoidal form. At least it helps me to visualize MDT as being relative to observation and logic.
astro
11-08-2006, 02:51 AM
Moving Dimensions Theory is in complete agreement with all experimental tests and phenomena associated with special and general relativity. MDT is in complete agreement with all physical phenomena as predicted by quantum mechanics and demonstrated in extensive experiments. The genius and novelty of MDT is that it presents a common physical model which shows that phenomena from both relativity and quantum mechanics derive from the same fundamental physical reality.
Nowhere does String Theory nor Loop Quantum Gravity account for quantum entanglement nor relativistic time dilation. MDT shows these derive from the same underlying physical reality. Nowhere does ST nor LQG account for wave-particle duality nor relativistic length contraction. MDT shows these derive from the same underlying physical reality. Nowhere does ST nor LQG account for the constant speed of light, nor the independence of the speed of light on the velocity of the source, nor entropy, nor time's arrow. MDT shows these derive from the same underlying physical reality. Nowhere does String Theory nor Loop Quantum Gravity resolve the paradox of Godel's Block Universe which troubled Eisntein. MDT resolves this paradox.
Simply put, MDT replaces the contemporary none-theories with a physical theory, complete with a simple postulate that unifies formerly disparate phenomena within a simple context.
THE GENERAL POSTULATE
OF DYNAMIC DIMENSIONS THEORY
The fourth dimension is expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions.
If at first the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it.
-Albert Einstein
But after thirty years of the absurdity of String Theory, millions of dollars from the NSF, and billions of complementary dollars from tax and tuition and endowments spent on killing physics and indie physicists, perhaps it's time for something that makes sense-for a physical theory that actually accounts for a deeper reality from which both Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, from which time, entanglement, gravity, entropy, interference, the constant speed of light, relativistic time dilation, length contraction, and the equivalence of mass and energy emerge. It's time for Moving Dimensions Theory-MDT.
-The Physicist with No Name
I know what you're thinking. Did he say there were thirty-six dimensions or only thirty-five? Well to tell you the truth in all this excitement I've kinda lost track myself. But being this is a .45 Revolver-the most powerful hand gun in the world and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question--Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya punk!? -Clint Eastwood
I'm interested in the fact that the less secure a man is, the more likely he is to have extreme prejudice. -Clint Eastwood
Go ahead. Make my day. -Clint Eastwood
MDT IN BRIEF
Without further adieu, allow me to present the beauty and elegance of MDT by showing both its simplicity and far-reaching ability to account for and answer fundamental questions. All of the below will be elaborated on throughout the book.
Questions Addressed by MDT:
Why does light have a maximum, constant speed independent of the source? The fourth dimension is expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions. A photon is momenergy that exists orthogonal to the three spatial dimensions. It is carried along by the expanding fourth dimension. So no matter how fast the source is moving when the photon is emitted, the photon travels at the rate with which the fourth dimension is expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions. Thus c is always independent of the movement of the source.
Why are light and energy quantized? The fourth dimension is expanding in a quantized manner relative to the three spatial dimensions. Light and energy are matter rotated completely into the fourth expanding dimension, and as it expands in a quantized manner, light and energy are thus quantized.
Why is the velocity of light constant in all frames? Time is an emergent phenomena that arises because the fourth dimension is expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions. The flow of time is inextricably wed to the emission and propagation of photons. In all biological, mechanical, and electronic clocks, the emission and propagation of photons is what determines time. The velocity of light is always measured with respect to time, which is inextricably linked to the velocity of light. This tautology ensures that the velocity of light, measured relative to the velocity of light, will always be the same.
How can photons display both wave and particle properties? The fundamental photon propagates as a spherical wave-front, surfing the fourth expanding dimension. This is because the fourth expanding dimension appears as a spherical wavefront as it expands through the three spatial dimensions. The act of measurement localizes the photon's momenergy, taking it out of the expanding fourth dimension and trapping it in the three stationary spatial dimensions, and it appears as a localized particle, trapped by electrons as it blackens a grain on a photographic plate.
How can matter display both wave and particle properties? The fundamental electron is abuzz with photons. Photons are continually being emitted into the fourth expanding dimension and reabsorbed by the electron. The continual dance with these photons gives the electron its wave properties. Nothing moves without photons which up the net probability that the combine momenergy will be in the expanding fourth dimension. The more photons one adds to an object, the greater the chance it has of existing in the expanding fourth dimension, and thus it moves.
Why are there non-local effects in quantum mechanics? The fourth dimension is expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions. That means that what begins as a point in the fourth dimension is a sphere with a 186,000 mile radius one second later. So it is that the entire spherical wavefront of the photon exists in the exact same place in time. Hence the non-locality observed in double slit experiments, the EPR effect, and quantum entanglement. Take two interacting spin ½ photons and let them propagate at the speed of c in opposite directions. They are yet at the exact same place in time! And too, they are yet in the exact same place of the fourth expanding dimension.
Why does time stop at the speed of light?
Time depends on the emission and propagation of photons. If no photons are emitted, time does not occur. This holds true whether the clock is an unwinding copper spring, a biological system such as a heart, or an oscillating quartz crystal. No photom emission=no time! As an object approaches the speed of light, its ability to emit photons without reabsorbing them diminishes. An object traveling at the speed of light cannot emit a photon.
How come a photon does not age?
A photon represents momenergy rotated entirely into the fourth expanding dimension. A photon stays the exact same place in the fourth dimension, no matter how far it travels. A photon stays the exact same place in time, no matter how far it travels. Again, time is not the fourth dimension, but in inherits properties of the fourth dimension.
Why are inertial mass and gravitational mass the same thing?
Why do moving bodies exhibit length contraction?
Movement is always accompanied by a shortening in length. This is because the only way for a body to move is for it to undergo a rotation into the forth dimension, which is expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions. The more energy an electron has, the more photons it possesses, and the higher probability it exists in the expanding fourth dimension. Hence its length appears contracted as perceived from the three spatial dimensions.
Why are mass and energy equivalent?
The fourth dimension is expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions. That means that a baseball sitting on a lab table stationary in our three-dimensional inertial reference frame, is yet moving at a fantastic velocity relative to the fourth dimension. Hence every seemingly stationary mass has a vast energy, as given by E=mc2. In a nuclear reaction matter is rotated into the expanding fourth dimension, appearing as high-enegry photons (gamma rays) propagating at the same velocity of the fourth expanding dimension-c.
Why does time's arrow point in the direction it points in? The fourth dimension is expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions. Hence every photon naturally expands in a spherically symmetric manner. Hence every electron, or piece of matter that interacts with photons, is naturally carried outward from a central point in a spherically symmetric manner. Hence the particles in a drop of dye in a swimming pool dissipate in a spherically symmetric manner, and are never reunited. Hence time's arrow and entropy.
Why do photons appear as spherically-symmetric wavefronts traveling at a velocity c? The fourth dimension is expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions at the velocity c. Hence photons, which are tiny packets of momenergy rotated entirely into the fourth dimension, appear as spherically-symmetric wavefronts propagating at the velocity c.
Why is there a minus sign in the following metric?
x^2+y^2+z^2-c^2t^2=s^2
The fourth dimension is expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions at the velocity c. Hence the only way to stay still in the space-time continuum, and to achieve a 0 interval, is to move with the velocity of light.
What deeper reality underlies Einstein's postulates of relativity?
The fourth dimension is expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions at the velocity c. This single postulate assures that the speed of light is constant for all observers and that the laws of physics are the same in all inertial frames.
What deeper reality underlies Newton's laws?
Newton's laws are an approximation of relativity and quantum mechanics, and as MDT underlies QM & relativity, it underlies Newton's laws.
Why is an increase in velocity always accompanied by a decrease in length as measured by an external observer? All increases in velocity are accompanied by rotations into the fourth dimension. All particles can be represented by momenergy 4-vectors. The greater the momenrgy component in the expanding fourth dimension, the greater the velocity and speed of the particle. Rest mass is the invariant here. It never changes. It prefers the three spatial dimensions. In order for it to move, one must gain energy in the form of photons. These photons prefer the fourth expanding dimension. The more photons one adds, the greater the component of the momenergy 4-vector that appears in the fourth expanding dimension, the more energy the particle has, the shorter it appears, and the faster it moves.
How MDT Is Aiding Fellow Physicists
"The conclusions from Bell's theorem are philosophically startling; either one must totally abandon the realistic philosophy of most working scientists or dramatically revise our concept of space-time." -Abner Shimony and John Clauser
Moving Dimensions Theory provides this new concept of space-time. The vast ambitions of most tenure-track physicists, including string theorists and LQG hypers, causes them to focus on irrelevant, minute questions, and thus, though funded by millions for over thirty years, have not yet been able to string the bow. Deeper, true physicists, such as Abner Shimony and John Clauser are alert to the fact that physics need news ideas.
The expanding fourth dimension gives rise to non-local phenomena and quantum entanglement, as the expanding fourth dimension means that two events separated in the three spatial dimensions can yet appear to be at the exact same place in the fourth dimension. MDT thus provides the new concept of space-time.
"For me, then, this is the real problem with quantum theory: the apparently essential conflict between any sharp formulation and fundamental relativity. It may be that a real synthesis of quantum and relativity theories requires not just technical developments but radical conceptual renewal." -John Bell
Moving Dimensions Theory provides this radical conceptual renewal. The expanding fourth dimension gives rise to non-local phenomena and quantum entanglement, as the expanding fourth dimension means that two events separated in the three spatial dimensions can yet appear to be at the exact same place in the fourth dimension. MDT thus provides the new concept of space-time.
"Entanglement is not one but rather the characteristic trait of quantum mechanics." -Erwin Schrodinger
The expanding fourth dimension gives rise to non-local phenomena and quantum entanglement, as the expanding fourth dimension means that two events separated in the three spatial dimensions can yet be at the exact same place in the fourth dimension. MDT thus provides the new concept of space-time.
"For me, then, this is the real problem with quantum theory: the apparently essential conflict between any sharp formulation and fundamental relativity. It may be that a real synthesis of quantum and relativity theories requires not just technical developments but radical conceptual renewal." -John Bell
Moving Dimensions Theory provides this radical conceptual renewal. The expanding fourth dimension gives rise to non-local phenomena and quantum entanglement, as the expanding fourth dimension means that two events separated in the three spatial dimensions can yet appear to be at the exact same place in the fourth dimension. MDT thus provides the new concept of space-time.
"Entanglement is not one but rather the characteristic trait of quantum mechanics." -Erwin Schrodinger
The expanding fourth dimension gives rise to non-local phenomena and quantum entanglement, as the expanding fourth dimension means that two events separated in the three spatial dimensions can yet be at the exact same place in the fourth dimension. MDT thus provides the new concept of space-time.
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